U.S. Supreme Court & Abortion

Bob Englehart

Comments

[Abu Sinan]

My mother is a nurse and my father was a pre-med student before he decided to move in a different direction.

Both of them have seen this procedure done and both of them are totally against it.

Are you aware of what takes place in this procedure?

I think the partial birth abortion goes beyond the whole political sphere.

The baby is brought out, to a point where a couple more inches would mean the baby would get a birth certificate, not killed.

The cervix is dialated and then the surgeon uses forceps to drag the baby partially out of the womb by it's leg or legs.

The doctor pulls the rest of the baby out of the womb leaving only the head in the birth canal. Hence, it is mere inches from being given a birth certificate and birth.

Instead an incision is made in the head of the baby and a pair of scissors is used to make a hole in the baby's head bigger. The brain of this baby, a few inches from life, is sucked out and the skull of the baby collapses.

Can you imagine this, you are holding onto a baby. You can see it's legs, hold most of it's body, you can feel it move and squirm beneath you.

At the same time you put a hole in the baby's head and suck it's brains out.

It is really hard for me to think of anything more evil than this.

I am glad I never viewed this done like my parents have. I probably would grab the doctor and put a hole in his/her instead.

Aya, I dont know if you have had children. If you have picture your little baby, halfway between being offically alive and not yet born and having it's brain sucked out and it's skull crushed.

It is criminal and inhuman.

Thank GOD this procedure has been banned.

[Abu Sinan]

Here is testimony made in a court of law here in the USA:

Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby’s legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby’s body and the arms, everything but the head. The doctor kept the head right inside the uterus....The baby’s little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head, and the baby’s arms jerked out, like a startle reaction, like a flinch, like a baby does when he thinks he is going to fall. The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening, and sucked the baby’s brains out. Now the baby went completely limp."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=05-380

The baby's fingers were moving.....it's legs were kicking.

This is nothing less than murder.

[Northern shewolf]

Bravo Abu Sinan for a well laid out explanation of this murderous procedure, and for the link with which I am familiar.
While personally not against abortion on demand (for truly desperate cases, because after all we have contraceptives don't we? And at that, in the 1st trimester only!), I shudder at the sheer disregard for human life and total lack of ethics that would lead to such a late term procedure. How could a woman find herself so bereft of sense that she would wait till the child is fully-formed & viable to address an unwanted pregancy???
It beggars the mind, doesn't it?

[John]

Something that gets lost in the publicity about this case is that the USSC forbade only one procedure--D&E--not all procedures, not even equivalent-in-effect procedures. A baby can still be terminated within the womb through other means. Now, under the law which the USSC upheld, the fetus cannot be partially delivered before being terminated. The fetus has to be killed while still in the womb and dismembered.

I'm afraid I have to believe that a lot of hysteria is being created about this particular case by those who fear a 'slippery slope'.

The current publicity, of course, avoids the real point of the debate about abortion: whether or not it is a right protected by the US Constitution, and thus subject to federal law, or whether Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided in that it took the regulation of abortion out of the hands of the individual states. The issue isn't about abortion per se, but about who should properly regulate it.

[Abu Sinan]

Thanks Shewolf.

The one thing that was different about this ruling was that the members of the court for the first time allowed morality to be an issue in their ruling.

Personally I find abortion to be offensive and against not only the laws of man and nature, but against the laws of God Himself.

The only abortions I support are those for medical reasons, ie the baby is dead, or the mother has no chances of a safe delivery.

For me abortion, except for narrowly defined medical reason, is murder.

To me the "slippery slope" is already here. We see it in places like India where ultrasounds are used to determine which babies to abort and which ones to keep. When the baby cannot be aborted they wait until it is born and murder it that way.

For me the "slippery slope" is genetic testing that will allow for the abortion of babies who "might" have a "chance" of having some issue, whether it is physical or mental.

Yeah, sounds like the Nazis, an attempt to slaughter all of those who are different. If you cannot sterilize them all like we used to do here in the USA, kill them before they can be born.

Down Syndrome? Kill the baby! Probable mental retardation? Kill the baby! What...the kids might need glasses? Kill the baby.

You see, we are finding now that many issues can be guessed at using genetic predisposition testing. There are genetic markers that make it possible to predict who might have addiction problems.

Nothing that a needle and a genetic test wont fix. If they "might" be an addict, why worry, just kill the baby.

That is the "slippery slope" I worry about.

The VAST majority of abortions in the USA are for birth control reasonings. This is immoral, it is wrong, it is murder.

Bring up the issue of rape? The numbers of abortions because of rape every year a very low. Besides, why compound the crime by commiting another one? The baby commited no crime, why kill it? There are many people who would adopt.

One of my step children has Autism, and according to people who support abortion my wife should have had the right to kill her. Sorry, I love her issues and all.

As the vast majority of abortions are birth control related I suggest men and women do more to control themselves and their situation. If you cannot then accept the responsibility. If you dont want the responsibility, dont put yourself in the position.

I will now climb off my soap box.

[northern shewolf]

While I personally totally agree with your position on this issue, I still support abortion on demand only in the 1st trimester because in our morally deadened civilization, young people's dangerous and thoughtless behaviors lead to high levels of teenage pregnancy. Lots of girls see abortion as "oups! contraception`. While some young girls will opt for the moral choice of having the baby, the trend these days is to raise the child...which we might applaud except for the fact that a majority of these inexperienced and woefully inadequately prepared for parenthood kids, will actually fail miserably at it and create huge social problems. Until in our societies there is a commitment to educate kids early about sex, and promote as well as provide methods of contraception, for free if you must, there will always be those kids who have sex way too early, and way over their heads. So, and as repulsive as I personally find the idea of abortion, having myself fought to keep from being forced legally to abort my only pregnancy that my very poor health was deemed incapable of sustaining: my adored son is the result born very premature with his mom fighting hard for her own survival; proof that even in what appears to be impossible with faith and love one can realize a small miracle.
Even so, I much prefer that is offered the option of abortion available on demand, but under a clearly laid out set of rules, than to see repeated ad infinitum the tragedy of unwanted babies who end up poorly nurtured and educated.
As John points out the US Constitution does not provide a platform for any such legislation and the ground rules are murky as hell! Would it not make much more sense to educate early and widely provide contraceptive means to avoid having to see people use abortions as contraception?
Not only you can rant, Abu Sinan.. ;)

[Abu Sinan]

Northern Shewolf,

You write "than to see repeated ad infinitum the tragedy of unwanted babies who end up poorly nurtured and educated."

The problem is, if you look at the demographics of those who actually get abortions, they are the very people who CAN take care of the children.

The places in American society at the moment who have the most problem in raising socially responsible children, ie inner city/poor/ghetto, are the very same people who are much less likely to get the abortion in the first place.

The sad fact is the majority of women in America who get abortion are women who are adults and come from backgrounds that would put them in a very good position to raise these children just fine.

Some interesting facts:

The average woman who gets an abortion is a white woman aged 24, who already has at least one child and makes a yearly salery in the mid $20,000 range.

Only 1 in 5 abortions are given to teenagers whereas 1/4 of all abortions are given to women over 30, those in a position in life to best care for a baby.

Most women who have abortions are unmarried, which backs up the fact that most abortions are another form of birth control.

1/4 of all abortions were to women who have incomes of 300% or more of national poverty level, $39,000 or more.

Half of all preganancies in the US are unplanned. 9 in 10 of these end in abortion.

I think more should be done by our government to discourage financial excuses for abortion.

Many right wingers are so worried about abortion, yet they dont want to help out with the financial burder an additional child can bring.

I suggest graduated scales for child care like that of Western Europe, especially France. I suggest incentives to help mothers decide to keep their children and government help for those women who would rather give their children up for adoption.

I am very much against abortion, but unlike Republicans and the far right, I think the government has a role in making women want to be able to keep children.

Children are hard work, they do cost a lot. My life since I had two babies is not nearly the same as it was. I work 7 days a week and we never seem to have enough money. But when I look at my boys, it is all worth it.

Northern Shewolf, I commend you for the choice you made. Insha'Allah, may your boy remain the apple of your eye for the rest of your days!

[al_miller]

Perhaps if there were more abortions in Palestine there would be fewer suicide bombings. Abortion worked in the US to lower the crime rate.

If you don't like the sound of that perhaps you ought to think about abortion. It is vile and sick.

[Northern Shewolf]

Al Miller,
Again I see that your Jewish God is unable to inspire compassion and humanity in your shrivelled heart: your are a very sad case indeed. Were it not for the open-minded and empathetic Jews one does know, we may think that 'the exclusive club' of your religion is only fit for individuals given to meaness and vengefulness.
May you have an interesting life.

[Northern Shewolf]

Dear Abu Sinan,
Your figures are frightening indeed! I think that these adult unmarried women who find themselves pregnant, and then opt for abortion instead of motherhood, are selfish addled-brained idiots! Again contraception methods are widely available and furthermore cheap; that the average aborted woman is 24 speaks volume about the lack of social responsability both on their part and that of institutions who, as you so rightly point out could really offer better support in terms of child and health care. As I said before, I believe that we live in a morally desensitized society, where values amongst the young are quite materialistic and shallow, so it is no surprise that impulse-driven thoughtless behaviors lead to such dire solutions. I firmly support sex education within a strong ethically driven context, and as early as possible, this with reinforcement of birth control policies in every walk of life including the varied religious establishments.
Thanks again for your fine contribution and kind words, and yes my son is the greatest joy and pride in my life.

[Aya]

Al-Miller, I think this is the most miserable thing you have written so far. I wouldn't be surprised though if you come up with something more vile.

[Aya]

Abu Sinan, Northern Shewolf and John, this is an informative discussion and I will definitely come back to it with more details. However, the issue is not as clear cut as being represented here. Abu-Sinan, your parents may rightly so disagree with the procedure on a moral stance. As far as I read about this complex issue, other medical & legal practitioners hold completely opposite opinions opposing the ban. One element of disagreement is related to the unfortunate situation when a woman's health and life is in danger. What can be done then? And what are the alternatives? Does this ban incorporate this issue as well?

And with regard to the case of rape and abortion, yes the statistics might be low but it still exists and that is key. I think it is outrageous to stand against the wishes of a woman who wants to abort a pregnancy caused by rape. Yes, she can keep the child, yes she has alternative options, but it is her decision and choice and no law should force her against it. How can you imagine a life of a young girl who was raped by a father or a family member and is forced to have the child. This should never happen to begin with, but in our world it does happen and the law should have a priority of protecting the existing life of that woman.

[Northern Shewolf]

Dear Aya,
Quote: "One element of disagreement is related to the unfortunate situation when a woman's health and life is in danger. What can be done then? And what are the alternatives? Does this ban incorporate this issue as well?"
On this issue , I think that the woman should be sole judge of what is to be. My own story is a case in point: I had to hide the fact I was pregnant for the whole of the 1st trimester, as to according to Canadian legal standard and because I was a chronically ill person with only one not fully functioning kidney, it had been made cristal clear to me, that should I get pregnant, the physicians would get a court order to abort. So it went, and with God's good grace we both made it by a hair's breath.
I personally believe that abortion has its place in society, lots of women, be they victims of horrific rape, or deathly ill, should have that option open to them. There is also the question of personal liberty of choice in a democratic society that cannot be shunted aside, so on these grounds I am for abortion on demand provided that it is limited to the 1st trimester only. In our world it is now possible to determine and detect very early on problems and (God forbid!) terrible birth defects, so that any woman can choose what she wishes to do.
Abortion as contraception is anathema, a very awful thing to do for anyone with a moral rudder. This in a nutshell is my humble opinion.
In closing thank you very much for bringing to the fore a crucial debate that touches on so many issues: personal freedom of choice, social lack of resources and information, unsupervised teenage behaviors, and above all the disintegration of public morals at large.

[Abu Sinan]

I dont think murder is really a choice. Rape is bad, but why compound the issue by killing a baby? I wont ever buy that excuse.

For me the only rational for abortion is a consensus of medical experts that the lady in question faces death if she keeps the baby, or a similar opinion that the baby will be unable to survive birth.

Those are the only two reasonings I would ever support.

As to health professionals, I think you are not being accurate when you says that they all have opinions the opposite of what I have stated.

As a matter of fact, in many areas it is getting very, very hard to find doctors willing to perform abortion at all. This is out of moral reasoning.

I read an article the other day that they are saying it is now very hard to get an abortion in England becauses doctors are now refusing to do them.

These men and women are heros.

A society can and should be judged on how they treat their most vulnerable. There are not many people more vulnerable than unborn babies.

Besides, I think with 50 years the right to abortion as we know it today will be overturned.

A "trojan horse" so to speak has already been enacted in 38 states. In those 38 states it is a crime for someone to kill a women's fetus.

This basically means that the laws and courts have established that an unborn baby is alive and it is murder to kill it. Sooner or later the logical arugment is that if someone besides the mother can kill the baby, then if the mother does it, it is murder as well.

A baby cannot be alive for one person, and not alive for someone else. There is no logic in this.

If a woman is kicked in the stomach and the baby dies and the attacker is charged with murder, then a pregnant mother who takes the life of the same baby would indeed be guilty of the same crime.

Either the baby is alive or it isnt. If it isnt then an attack which leaves a baby dead is not murder, it is aggravated assault. If the baby is alive and its death is grounds for murder, then it is alive equally for the mother or the potential attacker.

It cannot be "alive" for the attacker and "not yet living" for the mother. It is either one or the other, and 38 states have said the baby is alive and can be killed.

[al_miller]

This is the problem with Islam. Everything disagreeable comes from a Jew. But I am not a Jew. Perhaps Arabs have no sense of irony. Abortion is horrible.

[northern shewolf]

Al Miller,
What is the matter with you? Have you been the centerpiece and direct target of violence at the hands of Muslim Arabs? If so, you have my deepest sympathy, and I wish you to know that there is help for the post-traumatic shock syndrome you 'seem to' be labouring from under: call the psychiatric hospitals in your neck of the woods for a much needed evaluation, that is,.. if such is the case....

And what is this with not being a Jew? You have yourself most certainly given a strong impression, not to say a riveting performance, as such in your diatribes against Muslims and Palestinians in particular, so much so that one was lead to believe it. Remember that I already, and this months ago, called you out on your relationship with "your Jewish God", something you should have set me straight about right then and there!
You know what I think?
You have given yourself the pretty low-brow and sad role of the ghoul that haunts Aya's blogspot: not a very appealing persona to engage strangers with.
And you are a liar.
May I suggest that you go and find yourself some other venue to exercise your spleen in, after all, the worldwide web is chock-a-block full of places where insults and rantings are the prized mode of expression.
Again, may you have an interesting life.

[Abu Sinan]

I agree Shewolf, good comments. "Al-Miller" says these things because he thinks it will bother us Muslims.

Far from it, I love Judaism and Jewish culture and have more Jewish friends than Christian friends, almost more than my Muslim friends.

It doesnt bother me at all. I just laugh at "al Miller" because he has such a distorted view of what Muslims and Arabs are really like.

[Northern Shewolf]

Thanks Abu Sinan,
All the same, when not wanted one should have the good grace to leave.

[al_miller]

Aya is okay. She can understand a few things but Northern Shewolf, you just don't click rationally. Just because you called me a Jew (aren't you filled with hate, what you don't like is Jewish) and i didn't immediately deny it doesn't mean I am a Jew but is that Muslim logic at work.

Actually I like logically thinking muslims but I just don't know any (and yes I do know mulims personally.)

[Abu Sinan]

I see "al-Miller" you think Aya is one of the "good Muslims"? Why is that?

Because she does not talk about Islam? Why is it that the only "good Muslims" are those Muslims whom others think are not observant?

This may or may not be the case, not all Muslims feel the need to talk about their religion, but it certainly is the case that no "good Muslim" is an observant Muslim to these people.

When a Westerner known to hate Islam and Muslims talks about a "good Muslim" that is usually directed towards those Muslims who are seen by these Westerners as denying or ignoring their faith.

Tips on how to be seen as a "good Muslim" by Westerners:

1. Talk about how many "adult beverages" you drink.

2. Never, ever talk in a positive way about Islam or Arab culture.

3. Always support Western actions around the world, never question the motivations of the USA.

4. Support Israel, even when they killed 1,400 civilians in Lebanon.

5. Only be critical towards yourself and where you come from, the entire world does no wrong except your country and culture.

6. Show as many naked ladies on your website as possible.

7. Talk about how outdated Islam is, never EVER bring up the faults in someone else's religion or society.

8. Let everyone know your willingness to eat bacon and all other pork products.

9. Talk about other women on your blog even though your wife reads the blog.

10. Be completely disrespectful about your own religion whilst having the upmost respect for everyone else's.

11. Exhibit a great amount of self hatred and feel the need to apologise any time something is done by a Muslim. "Waheed" in Riyadh passes gas..........you apologise.

There are many more, but you all get the idea.

[al_miller]

Abu Sinan, Is this what passes for logic among Muslims?

[Abu Sinan]

"al-Miller" I wouldn't expect anyone who waltzes around the internet making an ass out of themselves to even know what logic is.

[al_miller]

Maybe so Abu Sinan but I for sure will never find it from you typing on your Muslim invented ( logic-machine (computer). Oops (it wasn't invented by a Muslim because it couldn't be. It is un-Islamic, Mohammed didn't have one.)

[Abu Sinan]

Al Miller,

I guess you think all Muslims think this way, fact is, only the mindless minority do. I am glad to know, through reading your posts, that YOUR side has a mindless minority as well.

[al_miller]

Let me tell you about my side. My side is the side of reason, justice, and freedom. My side is the side of the rule of law and the rights of the people. My side is the side of progress, learning and knowledge. My side is the side of faith freely chosen and freely obeyed. My side is the side where women and men have equal rights, where a woman can show her face in public and can walk and talk and ride (or drive) in a car with a man to whom they are not married. It is the side where female children are protected from mutilation.

Tell me about your side.